In episode 48, Chris and Emma talked with Dr. Michael M. Piechowski, close collaborator of Dr. Kazimierz Dąbrowski and a scholar in the field of gifted education. Michael’s work has expanded our understanding of the theory of positive disintegration and the qualitative experience of giftedness.
We covered many topics in this episode, from Michael meeting Dąbrowski in Edmonton in 1967 to his retirement from Yunasa last summer. We learned about Michael’s early work with the theory and conducting research, the transition from science to counseling and pursuing a second doctorate, rethinking the levels of development, and understanding the importance of the unilevel and multilevel processes.
Michael talked with us about the research he did with Dąbrowski that provided a foundation for his work. We learned about the creation of his original Overexcitability Questionnaire, his second dissertation, Formless Forms, and his two papers from more recent years called Rethinking Dąbrowski’s Theory. We discussed why he felt it was necessary to rethink the levels and what case material was applied to this work.
This episode was recorded at Michael’s home during Chris’s visit to Madison, Wisconsin, and the format is conversational. We learned more about what Dr. Dąbrowski was like as a person and how to pronounce his name correctly. Michael also talked with us about what areas of research he’d like to see replicated or built on in the future.
Highlights from Episode 48:
00:02:59 Meeting Dąbrowski in Edmonton
00:06:18 Summer 1968 at Esalen
00:09:22 Science and counseling are different
00:10:46 Multilevelness research with Dąbrowski
00:17:14 Formless Forms
00:25:51 Rethinking levels of development
00:34:17 Bandura’s mechanisms of moral disengagement
00:42:09 Levels as universes
00:46:42 Future areas of research
00:49:00 What Dąbrowski was like
00:51:03 The need to replicate Lysy’s study
00:53:20 Yunasa
Extended show notes are available for paid subscribers.
*There is a transcript available for this episode on our website.
Links from this episode
Visit the Piechowski Archive on the Dabrowski Center’s website
Michael’s book Mellow Out is available via Royal Fireworks Press
Michael is co-editor of Living with Intensity and Off the Charts.
He is a Senior Fellow of the Institute for Educational Advancement.
Michael mentioned co-creating Yunasa with two of his dear friends who have also been podcast guests: Episode 19 with Stephanie Tolan and Episode 35 with Dr. Patty Gatto-Walden.
Chris has written posts about Michael with links and photos to accompany this episode, including:
Celebrating a Lifetime of Resilience, Scholarship, and Influence
My Experience of Being a Student
Major works that were mentioned:
Michael’s 1975 monograph
Rethinking Dabrowski’s Theory: I. The Case Against Primary Integration (2014)
Rethinking Dąbrowski’s Theory II: It’s Not All Flat Here (2017)
Michael’s ResearchGate Profile
Episode 36: Fostering Gifted Growth at Yunasa
Quick Bite, Two Years of Positive Disintegration (Episode 46)
Emma’s video on Positive Disintegration using the Matrix analogy
Deborah Ruf’s new book The 5 Levels of Gifted Children Grown Up and her Substack account
Women’s Ways of Knowing by Belenky et al.
Michael’s 2008 chapter has more on conserving vs transforming growth, as well as Barry Grant’s work.
Table of forms and manifestations of overexcitability
Connect with us
Positive Disintegration on Substack
Visit the Dabrowski Center website
The Positive Disintegration YouTube Channel
Adults with Overexcitabilities group on Facebook
Dabrowski Center and Positive Disintegration Podcast Community on Facebook
The Tragic Gift blog by Emma
Email us at positivedisintegration.pod@gmail.com
Please consider supporting the podcast to help fund this work through the Dabrowski Center, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization.
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The reason that there's no 'starting point' and it's not linear, nor is it a matter of looking down, is because we are energy, not atoms nor sub-atomic particles. Dabrowski didn't have access to modern information about plasma the 4th state of matter (after solid, liquid, gas). Trauma is the most significant factor in disease. Gabor Mate's 2022 book The Myth Of Normal explains this very well. Again Dabrowski didn't have access to this. A 'world without war' is not distant, except when we say it is. We have been conditioned to believe the propaganda and lies of the cults that pre-date the Holodomor. GrahamHancock.com understands and explains a lot of the possibilities of past human development. So does Robert-Temple.com. So did Gill Edwards' LivingMagically.co.uk. Sadly words and language distort meanings and our perceived realities. Dabrowski was a genius, but Michael Piechowski is correct about intuition. Intuition is an outlet/expression of energy, rather than scientific theory. Information theory is different to scientific theory. Native American Indian wisdoms and lifestyles are much closer to human authenticity than the conditioning of the past several centuries. Read Graham Hancock's 2019 book America Before - The Key to Earth's Lost Civilization, and see his latest updates on twitter @Graham_Hancock.
All that said, thank you for another wonderful episode.
There is a limit to what we can do in a lifetime, but 'a human lifetime' is a very narrow and limited perspective by which to contextualise anything.
We must also consider that human and animal and plant energies of consciousness and sentience are always connected, which is infinitely faster than Einstein's theory of the speed of light. That said, e=mc2 is mathematical nonsense, in the same way that all mathematical formulae are nonsense. Love has no mass. Nor do any of the vital elements of human evolution, such as intuition, thought, feeling, cooperation, conversation, etc. It's a soul thing. A love thing. We are energy not mathematical expressions of nonsense.
Love, gratitude, peace, etc., and a world without war. It's coming, much faster than you can imagine it, and then we'll understand :)