Interesting Quotes, Vol. 11

Excerpts from Mastery by Robert Greene

I’m back home from my trip to Wisconsin, but still processing the moments and experiences. Following up on last week's post about My Experience of Being a Student, I thought sharing some excerpts from Robert Greene’s Mastery might be nice.¹ It was thanks to a colleague in my Gifted Psychology 101 for Psychologists cohort that I discovered Mastery in early 2021.

The excerpts I’m sharing today are all from Chapter III—Absorb the Master’s Power: The Mentor Dynamic.

Chapter III begins with:

“Life is short, and your time for learning and creativity is limited. Without any guidance, you can waste valuable years trying to gain knowledge and practice from various sources. Instead, you must follow the example set by Masters throughout the ages and find the proper mentor. The mentor–protégé relationship is the most efficient and productive form of learning. The right mentors know where to focus your attention and how to challenge you. Their knowledge and experience become yours. They provide immediate and realistic feedback on your work, so you can improve more rapidly. Through an intense person-to-person interaction, you absorb a way of thinking that contains great power and can be adapted to your individual spirit. Choose the mentor who best fits your needs and connects to your Life’s Task.” (Greene, 2012, p. 94)

When I was searching for a mentor following the autoethnography presentations in 2014-2015, I had no idea who would best fit my needs because I didn’t have a clear view of my needs. I can say that Michael has no problem delivering immediate and realistic feedback and certainly knows how to challenge me.

One thing that’s happened since meeting Michael in 2016 is that I now have an encyclopedic knowledge of his work and many aspects of his life and personal history. But that’s not even close to the most important learning I’ve done. It’s not easy to capture in my words what it’s been like and the changes I’ve been through.

For the past two years, I’ve been trying to write about the experience of finding a mentor in Michael and learning with him. One of the most difficult things to capture well is how intense it was for me emotionally. In my initial post about him, I alluded to having a mystical experience during the first in-person visit to Wisconsin in March 2017. I didn’t have that language at the time, and it felt like my heart and mind had broken open. Or as if I was suddenly plugged into the energy of another dimension, which felt like electricity running through me. My emotions were hugely impacted, but so were my imagination and intellect, and I was finally operating on all cylinders.

The energy I had for studying the theory and writing to Michel was inexhaustible. But it felt like an emergency because it was uncomfortable and overwhelming, and it took a whole year to get a handle on my emotions. The following excerpt captures the upside of the intensity:

“When you admire people, you become more susceptible to absorbing and imitating everything they do. You pay deeper attention. Your mirror neurons are more engaged, allowing for learning that involves more than the superficial transmission of knowledge, but also includes a style and way of thinking that is often powerful... You must not be afraid of this emotional component to the relationship. It is precisely what makes you learn more deeply and efficiently.” (Greene, pp. 103-104)

My other mentor, Frank Falk, used to tell me that it should be a priority to learn how Michael thinks. I remember telling Frank not to worry, that learning everything I could about Michael was indeed my priority. And although I’m still unsure I can claim to know how he thinks, progress has been made.

Here’s an excerpt from my journal with thoughts from reading Mastery:

“This book is fascinating. There are interesting answers here for me. Now I’m thinking about my experience of searching for and finding a mentor. Frank is also a mentor to me, but it’s been different. Greene provides many examples of mentor relationships and situations, and I’m finding it helpful. I can see where Michael has done things that felt tough—and I didn’t understand where he was coming from—but now it suddenly makes sense.” (February 15, 2021)

One aspect of the mentor relationship with Michael that took time to appreciate is his toughness. I didn’t realize until dealing with him that I’d spent a lifetime with people not being particularly tough with me.

When I was young, I was given a million chances and often treated by a different set of rules than others because of my giftedness. With Michael, he never cuts me any slack. From the beginning, I’ve felt that he expects a certain level of excellence, and it has been highly beneficial for me to learn from someone so exacting.

Strategies for Deepening the Mentor Dynamic—

1. Choose the mentor according to your needs and inclinations.

2. Gaze deep into the mentor’s mirror.

3. Transfigure their ideas. 

4. Create a back and forth dynamic.

Of these four items, the one that always gets to me is “Gaze deep into the mentor’s mirror.” There’s never been anyone like Michael in my life. No one could ever really handle my intensity until I met Michael. When I gazed into the mirror with him, I saw how far I had to go and how much I had to learn about controlling my mind and intensity. That realization didn’t trigger despair for me like it did when I was younger. Instead, I saw a path forward and knew I was already becoming the person I’d always hoped I could be.

There’s a quote in the “Strategies” section that’s worth sharing here:

“One repays a teacher badly if one remains only a pupil.” —Friedrich Nietzsche

It’s been clear to me since the beginning with Michael that I couldn’t simply talk about his work and continue writing and speaking about overexcitability the same way he had during his career. For the first few years working with him, I was mostly away from social media and the public, only presenting at conferences or sharing online if it was necessary. It took time to find my voice, and it’s been a lengthy process of establishing a foundation and doing my work.

Greene says that while we have to submit to the authority of our mentors to learn from them, we can’t stay there forever. We have to figure out how to transform what we’re learning into creative energy and do the work that builds on what’s been done.

I never forget that I’m standing on the shoulders of Dąbrowski, Piechowski, and everyone else who has contributed to the theory. I’m just one part of this community of scholars who study positive disintegration and giftedness.

Again, from my journals:

“In Mastery, Greene said, “To learn by example is to submit to authority.”

What Greene says about mentors makes so much sense to me. This is how it’s been—I’ve had to become willing to learn and be a student. When I was young, I was not willing. I didn’t find anyone to be in that role until with Michael.” (June 25, 2021)

The mentor relationships I had before getting to know Michael were different and more superficial. There were professors during undergrad and graduate school who could be considered mentors because they guided me and provided advice and opportunities. But these were people I only knew over the course of classes or independent study projects. I wasn’t deeply fascinated by their work and lives like I’ve experienced with Michael.

I want to convey that the relationship I’ve been describing with Michael was challenging to develop, and I had to learn how to accept his feedback, which sometimes felt harsh. More than accept it, there were times when I asked for it directly to break out of unproductive and painful patterns. Even when his responses or criticism felt hard to take, it was always given with kindness and respect.

He can be very hard-nosed and uncompromising. He’s been known to give the kind of stern, realistic criticism Greene describes here:

“It seems abusive or damaging to people’s self-esteem to offer them stern, realistic criticism, to set them tasks that will make them aware of how far they have to go. In fact, this indulgence and fear of hurting people’s feelings is far more abusive in the long run. It makes it hard for people to gauge where they are or to develop self-discipline. It makes them unsuited for the rigors of the journey to mastery. It weakens people’s will.” (Greene, p. 115)

A journal entry from July 2017 illustrates the early process of learning to accept criticism without taking it personally.

“I was just feeling a little sorry for myself, that's what prompted me to write in here. At first, I considered writing to Michael about it. But to say what? That he hurt my feelings? That I'm proud of myself for choking back the desire to rail at him about why it was fucked up to say what he said? No. I'm not going to. Because there was some misunderstanding involved, so it isn't as terrible as it feels. Still, it's hard for me to understand how harsh he can be at times. That's just who he is, I suppose. Not very often, though.” (July 14, 2017)²

What I haven’t written about yet in these posts is that I had a rejecting father. Having a parent who rejected me was traumatic, and during the first years of getting to know Michael, he often triggered my childhood wounding. It can still happen if I’m tired or under too much stress to remember not to take his words personally.

From my journal:

“I was so wounded and hurt. I can see how much I’ve grown over the years, and my emotional development has been hard-won. I have worked hard and transformed myself.

Michael is amazing, and he has such a brilliant mind. It’s been wonderful to get to know him like I have. The way he humbles me is incredible. He has been a somewhat reluctant mentor with me. It has not been easy for him. I’m writing about things I wish I could talk with him about.” (April 26, 2021)

Many aspects of my experiences seem directly connected with giftedness and other kinds of neurodivergence. Growing up identified as highly or profoundly gifted often means not having adequate mirroring, and it also can mean not having many experiences of feeling humbled by other people even well into adulthood.

I’ve known other people who humble me with their brilliance, but with Michael, it’s a regular occurrence, and I’ve grown to love it. I’ve written about this many times over the years with him.

I agree with all of this from Greene:

“Masters are those who by nature have suffered to get to where they are. They have experienced endless criticisms of their work, doubts about their progress, setbacks along the way. They know deep in their bones what is required to get to the creative phase and beyond. As mentors, they alone can gauge the extent of our progress, the weaknesses in our character, the ordeals we must go through to advance. In this day and age, you must get the sharpest dose of reality that is possible from your mentor. You must go in search of it and welcome it. If possible, choose a mentor who is known for supplying this form of tough love. If they stray away from giving it, force them to hold up the mirror that will reflect you as you are. Get them to give you the proper challenges that will reveal your strengths and weaknesses and allow you to gain as much feedback as possible, no matter how hard it might be to take. Accustom yourself to criticism. Confidence is important, but if it is not based in a realistic appraisal of who you are, it is mere grandiosity and smugness. Through the realistic feedback of your mentor you will eventually develop a confidence that is much more substantial and worth possessing.” (Greene, pp. 115-116)

Here’s an image I saved from a visit to Madison in September 2017 while working on a paper with Michael’s help. Little comments like “learn this” helped me pay closer attention and stop making the same errors repeatedly.

As much as I’ve loved learning with Michael as his student, I’ve always been aware of the need to find my own voice and direction with the theory of positive disintegration.

Frank once told me that what seemed to differentiate me from most other people who’d come to the overexcitabilities in gifted ed was that I could see past Michael’s work.

“To learn from mentors, we must be open and completely receptive to their ideas. We must fall under their spell. But if we take this too far, we become so marked by their influence that we have no internal space to incubate and develop our own voice, and we spend our lives tied to ideas that are not our own. The solution… is subtle: Even as we listen and incorporate the ideas of our mentors, we must slowly cultivate some distance from them. We begin by gently adapting their ideas to our circumstances, altering them to fit our style and inclinations. As we progress we can become bolder, even focusing on faults or weaknesses in some of their ideas. We slowly mold their knowledge into our own shape.” (Greene, pp. 118-119)

My understanding of overexcitability has evolved over the years I’ve known Michael. At first, all I knew was his work, and then I studied the research on OE in gifted education. I read Dąbrowski’s work and started learning Polish, and eventually, I read some of Dąbrowski’s Polish work.

But it was reading about neurodiversity and autism in Steve Silberman’s NeuroTribes that brought me the revelation about how I wanted to discuss the origins and evolution of the term overexcitability in a paper with Frank. All of that work helped me develop my understanding of the place of OE and the theory in gifted education and beyond. It brought me where I needed to be. It took two years of constant effort and work to make the paper a reality, and some of the toughest moments with Michael came from him pushing me out of the endless cycle of exploring the past to get it done.

From the first year of getting to know him, I’ve wondered when things would change. When would I stop wanting to visit him in Wisconsin? When would I stop waiting to hear from him and checking my email? When would I tire of reading and discussing Michael’s work? I’ll let you know when those things happen.

One of the most fascinating things to admit about getting to know Michael is that I haven’t come close to reaching the end of the process yet, and it’s been 7+ years.

I’ve had to learn how to tell him that I don’t agree with him about something in his work or that I’d suggest doing things differently. It’s never easy to challenge him, but I’ve found there’s nothing to be afraid of because even if we never see things eye to eye, we can be respectful in our views.

Greene talks about how important it is to keep evolving the relationship:

“In theory, there should be no limit to what we can learn from mentors who have wide experience. But in practice, this is rarely the case. The reasons are several: at some point the relationship can become flat; it is difficult for us to maintain the same level of attention that we had in the beginning. We might come to resent their authority a little, especially as we gain in skill and the difference between us becomes somewhat less. Also, they come from a different generation, with a different worldview. At a certain point, some of their cherished principles might seem a bit out of touch or irrelevant, and we unconsciously tune them out. The only solution is to evolve a more interactive dynamic with the mentor. If they can adapt to some of your ideas, the relationship becomes more animated. ” (p. 121)

The excerpts I’m sharing with you in this post brought me joy when I discovered Mastery because, at that point, I’d been in this intense relationship with not only Michael but the whole theory and its constructs for five years.

At least a couple of people had suggested that I was obsessed, and I felt some judgment about how single-pointed I was in studying the theory with Michael. I had never had that kind of passionate engagement with a topic and scholar before, and it felt validating to read what Greene wrote about the mentor dynamic.

“You bring to the relationship the utmost in admiration and your total attention. You are completely open to their instruction. Gaining their respect for how teachable you are, they will fall a bit under your spell… with your intense focus, you improve in your skill levels, giving you the power to introduce more of yourself and your needs. You give them feedback to their instruction, perhaps adjust some of their ideas. This must begin with you, as you set the tone with your hunger to learn. Once a back-and-forth dynamic is sparked, the relationship has almost limitless potential for learning and absorbing power.” (Greene, pp. 121-122)

The final excerpt I want to share is a reminder to never get comfortable as an expert and stop growing in my knowledge and understanding of the theory of positive disintegration.

“The problem with all students… is that they inevitably stop somewhere. They hear an idea and they hold onto it until it becomes dead; they want to flatter themselves that they know the truth. But true Zen never stops, never congeals into such truths. That is why everyone must constantly be pushed to the abyss, starting over and feeling their utter worthlessness as a student. Without suffering and doubts, the mind will come to rest on clichés and stay there, until the spirit dies as well. Not even enlightenment is enough. You must continually start over and challenge yourself.” (pp. 114-115)

My wish for everyone who needs a mentor is that you find one like Michael.

1. Greene, R. (2012). Mastery. Penguin Books.

2. It’s been interesting to share journal entries with swear words in them because it shows me how the frequency of these words has declined in my writing over time. I rarely write the F word these days, although you’ll hear me use it occasionally on the podcast.